Curse

RedStar · Oct 13, 2010, 07:23 PM // 19:23

If you played PvP in the hopes the HoM rewards will be greater because you pvp'd, then you should have realized that something that can only be access by PvE, and where 3/4 of the monuments can only be filled by things earned by playing PvP, would reward PvE play over PvP.

Quote:

How so? Like you said, we've heard little-to-nothing about it, so that would logically guide someone to reach the conclusion that it's not a primary focus of the game.

From that logic, the 4 others professions won't be a primary focus of the game.
What I mean is that we have very few infos aside from the lore and some things from PvE (loot, dyes, travel and some skills...so from all of that the point of the game is to travel, kill things and dye your loot >_< ).

Quote:

Gogo Grandmaster Battle Isles Cartographer!

At least that's one title I already maxed xD.

Skyy High · Oct 13, 2010, 07:32 PM // 19:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Karate Jesus

How so? Like you said, we've heard little-to-nothing about it, so that would logically guide someone to reach the conclusion that it's not a primary focus of the game.

That word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

Quote:

The formats they've described alone are not well-built for competitive play in an MMO, although I'd love to be proven wrong.

...what? The only real info we have about the competitive "formats" they've given us is that they'll all be 5v5, and at least the lower-level formats will be hot-joinable. Onos, it's 5v5 instead of 8v8, ALL HOPE IS LOST!

ilr · Oct 13, 2010, 07:43 PM // 19:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Malice Black

It's just titles and shitty little rewards, nothing worth having a heart attack over.

Are you kidding?

The only thing Hardcore pvpers care about is their egos/image and status (rank).
Failure by anet to make 100 levels of meaningless titles with half of them being only for PvP'ers was the last straw

Elad Agilaz · Oct 13, 2010, 07:48 PM // 19:48

Wait, what?

I payed $50 per game for the game, for the storyline, and for playing with other people, of which pvp makes up a very small part. If the game was very much more pvp oriented (like wow), then these complaints would be valid.

But the game was sold with pve content in mind. Pve is the focus of the game. Pvp is optional if you bought the games instead of just a pvp access account (which im sure 99% of us did).

So whats the big deal? You want pve rewards, go pve.

Karate Jesus · Oct 13, 2010, 07:49 PM // 19:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by RedStar

From that logic, the 4 others professions won't be a primary focus of the game.

Well, really we can't draw any conclusion from the PvP of GW2, so to assume it'd be worse or better is moot.

The point is that so far, GW2 is a predominantly PvE game. I think that's fine, and probably going to help Anet get some money and a good population. It hurts the PvP fanbase of GW1, but that's not a huge player-base, so it's not as big of a deal. (speaking as a PvP'er)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elad Agilaz

If the game was very much more pvp oriented (like wow), then these complaints would be valid.

lolwut? You've never played WoW, huh?

ilr · Oct 13, 2010, 07:52 PM // 19:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elad Agilaz

If the game was very much more pvp oriented (like wow), then these complaints would be valid.

FengShuiDove · Oct 13, 2010, 07:58 PM // 19:58

If you're as serious about PvP as you seem to be then you'd easily have obtained several of the title levels necessary for a good amount of points in the HoM. And some of them on the way to 30 are so sickeningly easy you barely have to play at all.

Plus, I can't imagine you never even finished the campaigns, or with all your PvP experience didn't get r4 K/L. Did you unpackage GW and go "OH MAN, AM GONNA BE PVP STARRRR"?

No, you didn't. 30 is pie even if all you ever did was play through the campaigns once for the lulz and PvP the rest of the time. And what did you expect from the rewards? You can take your items to PvP as well. Just because they're universal and not PvP specific you're gonna whine about it?

Waaaahhh.

BogusDude · Oct 13, 2010, 08:27 PM // 20:27

They tried to steer people more into pvp when they released Factions, and failed, likely why NF is alot more like prophecies. They can try and try all they like, pve will always far out weigh pvp for mmorpg type games. PvP is a little bit of fun different to the norm, which most of us care little about, but agree is a nice "small" part of the game that they made a half decent job of. Personally i would hazard a guess that less than 5% of those who claim to be hardcore pvpers actually are, most decent hardcore pvpers don't play these type of games much. You've got what 8 pvp titles that you don't need to anywhere need max out to get a statue, 5 of those statues will get you 11 points, 3 more points that a pve player will get from their 5 statues. What you whining about you got a good deal? and PvE players actually have to max their titles to get most of their statues. You seem to be under some sort of illusion that hardcore pvpers deserve more but fail to back it up, why do they deserve more?

Maybe i should start whining for a GWAMM statue, meh who cares i don't need it muwahaha

Artisan Archer · Oct 13, 2010, 08:40 PM // 20:40

Makes sense, cause gw2 seems to be made for PvE'ers.

StormDragonZ · Oct 13, 2010, 08:58 PM // 20:58

What the OP failed to do is explain what could be done to make PvP more viable for these rewards.

Unfortunately, no one explains anymore. They just GO RED ENGINEing complain.

Mireles · Oct 13, 2010, 09:05 PM // 21:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by doomfodder

Again ANT creates incentive to Play PvE over PvP. Gotta luv the GW2 HoM calculator. At least all players that want "GW reward" in GW2 know just what they need to do in order to MAX the "rewards".

And it turns out that you need EXACTLY ONE PvP item (any PvP title) in your HoM. Thats it??? EVERYTHING ELSE is PvE!!!!

Now I'm certainly no genius, but it seems to me that those gamers that desire a full HoM (per the calculator) will focus their available game time on PvE & NOT PvP.

Anyway, it occurs to me that if ANET wanted to sustain SOME incentive for gamers to choose between PvP over PvE, then maybe they should offer in-game gold for kills in PvP so that those players could also BUY the items they need for a full HoM. Essentially when you play PvP, you are effectively excluded from 49 of the 50 HoM items required for "max rewards" (unless of course you use zkeys from the balth you earn or you get the ZC & trade for zoins items - booze/sweets/party)

Guess I shoulda seen THAT commin.

In my opinion, arena net did not include pvp heavily in HoM rewards because they wanted their definition of casual players to be able to obtain these rewards easily.... Most casual players do not have the rank to participate in such highly discriminatory areas of the game.

Pvp is not dead because arena net killed it... It is dead because nobody in the PvP community is willing to accept low ranks or new players. Many players want to pvp, but because of the barriers of entry that have existed for years, It does not seem worth it to most, even thou there are high prestige title and rewards associated with with PvP more so than PvE. High player discrimination does not fall under the definition of casual play in any since.

Being a PvP player does not exclude you from playing PvE as you say... even if you can not find a group or a guild (which is impossible you walk into LA or Kamadan pve guild recruiters only smack you in the face)... Heroes and Henches are more than enough to get you threw areas. You can still get PvE rewards and still play PvP.

Sure the HoM rewards did not help stimulate PvP play... but it didn't hurt it either.. Just left is as the pvp community made it.

*lemming* · Oct 13, 2010, 09:10 PM // 21:10

Everyone who hasn't already seen the parallel thread in Sardelac should at least read Shayne's post.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shayne Hawke

You can't earn it exclusively through PvP. There is potential for you to earn the Zaishen title even though you have never fought another player, which is the whole essence behind the idea of "PvP". If there's no competition between players, it shouldn't be given the PvP label.

I'm mystified at how you're not following my logic yet that I've had to explain myself through this many posts.

If you can earn the title through PvE play, it is a PvE title.
If the only way to earn the title is by stepping foot into an arena, it is a PvP title.
If you have the option of earning a title through either PvE or PvP means, it can be earned without playing PvP, and is therefore a PvE title.

Shriketalon · Oct 13, 2010, 09:19 PM // 21:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mireles

Pvp is not dead because arena net killed it... It is dead because nobody in the PvP community is willing to accept low ranks or new players. Many players want to pvp, but because of the barriers of entry that have existed for years, It does not seem worth it to most, even thou there are high prestige title and rewards associated with with PvP more so than PvE. High player discrimination does not fall under the definition of casual play in any since.

Indeed.

Trying to make lots of PvP rewards in the Hall would be ridiculous. Could you imagine a rush of people attempting to gain fame due to a Must Have This Emote To Complete The Hall reward? Or a GvG based design that resulted in thousands of players suddenly crying for a group that could play well? It would be an utter disaster, because PvP, random arena aside, is an exclusive club with exclusive members, and they're vastly outnumbered by the casual players.

The game went to PvE. PvP has its place, but it hasn't been the focus for years. PvE pays the bills; its players love new content, it allows the designers to explore their creativity, and new campaigns and new continents push the business forward. PvP loves stability; they like the skills remaining balanced without any new quirks gumming up everything, they like the game types they enjoy as they are, and they like a very strict hierarchy.

The latter just didn't sell. The former did. Don't blame Anet, blame the players. We pushed the game in the direction that it went.

X Dr Pepper X · Oct 13, 2010, 09:29 PM // 21:29

10/10 Trolling.

Also, it is unfair that all of the pts are PvE based for the HoM, but it'd also be unfair that a PvE player or a PvP player should be forced to step out of what they want to do.

They should have done a pool of 100 points and a max reward of of idk...50? points, so you'd have options to choose from equal amounts of PvP/PvE and fullfill your max 50 without ever having to do the area of the game you don't like/want.

dwchang · Oct 13, 2010, 09:30 PM // 21:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elad Agilaz

If the game was very much more pvp oriented (like wow), then these complaints would be valid.

But the game was sold with pve content in mind. Pve is the focus of the game. Pvp is optional if you bought the games instead of just a pvp access account (which im sure 99% of us did).

I don't claim to know when you started playing, but that's not entirely true. Those of us who started playing on Launch Day or during the Open Beta know that the game had a reasonable amount of PvP-focus from 2005 - 2006 when Guilds like War Machine (WM), The Last Pride (Evil), Idiot Savants (iQ), Treacherous Empires (Te), Rifts, Lamers Ultimate Minority (LuM), etc. were around. I'm sure old timers remember how big of a deal the two $100,000 World Championship GvG tournaments were and so on.

It's obviously up for debate who let PvP degrade to where it is now, but the point still remains that Guild Wars was never launched as a purely PvE game. If anything, your WoW analogy is a bit off since WoW is considered heavily PvE oriented with Arenas/PvP added quite a few years later. Guild Wars launched with quite a few PvP options, hype and hell, the name of the game is GUILD Wars which in itself implies PvP.

You are however (unfortunately) right that *currently* the game is heavily PvE-focused and frankly I can't blame A.net for doing that since that is where the money and players are. I am by no means debating that. Only the historical perspective.

joseph Mckennie · Oct 13, 2010, 09:42 PM // 21:42

Arenanet is doing something that doesnt specifically apply to my play style? It must be a conspiracy! They hate us!

doomfodder · Oct 13, 2010, 10:15 PM // 22:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shriketalon

Trying to make lots of PvP rewards in the Hall would be ridiculous. Could you imagine a rush of people attempting to gain fame due to a Must Have This Emote To Complete The Hall reward? Or a GvG based design that resulted in thousands of players suddenly crying for a group that could play well? It would be an utter disaster, because PvP, random arena aside, is an exclusive club with exclusive members, and they're vastly outnumbered by the casual players.

Actually I can imagine that.

IF ANET had decided to create HoM PvP incentive by making more (say 4 for example) HoM PvP titles mandatory in order to achieve GW "max rewards" in GW2, then almost assuredly the PvE player community would balk (why wouldn't they?). 4 PvP titles??? pffft... To the majority of GW players, that would mean Lux, Kurz, Zaishen & one other.

The fundemental question is: Would that be adequate incentive for PvE players to participte in PvP (RA,GvG,HA,Codex)? Very hard to predict... Is it possible in this hypothetical HoM requirement that some PvE'rs would just quit GW entirely becuase they feel they would NEVER achieve that requirement for GW "max rewards" in GW2? Also very hard to predict... Is it also possible in this hypothetical scenario that more PvE would try PvP, then give up & go back to PvE while just accepting that they woulnd't ever achieve GW "max rewards" in GW2? Also very hard to predict...

Something that is even more difficult to imagine is say 5 full HA districts with oodles of ads that read "GLF balanced -any rank accepted". Would that mean that there's a likelihood that low ranked balanced teams would compete against other low ranked balanced teams? Probably. But in that scenario, it is also FAR LESS LIKELY that low ranked teams would get rolled by the "hardcore PvP'ers" that are only "rank farming". As was noted in the quote above "...PvP, random arena aside, is an exclusive club with exclusive members, and they're vastly outnumbered by the casual players."

Ultimately after GW2 comes out, anyone will still be able to play PvE (presuming the servers are still up) because of H/H (Elite areas not withstanding). However, the likelyhood of participating in GW PvP can't be predicted (assumed by me to be extremely low probability) because it REQUIRES ENOUGH HUMANS in order to participate.

So it comes back to incentive... the OP identified a possible incentive (earn $ for each PvP kill). But as was pointed out by other posters in this thread, players could still earn $ in PvE so how does $ create incentive to PvP? Agreed, the $ reward in PvP would have to outweigh by some margin what could be gained in PvE to influence even a small migration from PvE to PvP.

I'll throw this question out to the hardore & casual PvE community that's reading this thread. What would incent you to participate in PvP? HoM requirement? $ rewards? more zkeys? more balth? something else? Or is there no incentive at all because you absolutely hate the venues themselves? Or no incentive at all because you refuse to participate due to the rank discrimination?

snaek · Oct 13, 2010, 10:23 PM // 22:23

what's wrong with creating incentive to pvp? people have incentive to farm pve hours on end which i think is the most boring thing you can do. surely rewarding pvp can't be that bad. "omg pvp is 2 hard and i don't want 2 lern" is not a valid excuse.

the whole elitist pvp'rs keeping new people out isn't an excuse either. if anet creates enough incentive, there will be enough people that new people will be able to play with other new people.

Mireles · Oct 13, 2010, 10:34 PM // 22:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by snaek

what's wrong with creating incentive to pvp? people have incentive to farm pve hours on end which i think is the most boring thing you can do. surely rewarding pvp can't be that bad. "omg pvp is 2 hard and i don't want 2 lern" is not a valid excuse.

the whole elitist pvp'rs keeping new people out isn't an excuse either. if anet creates enough incentive, there will be enough people that new people will be able to play with other new people.

Its not that there is anything wrong with PvP... its just that there isn't anything casual about it with all the Metas and what not.... new players playing with new players are just going to get whaled on.

That being said.... don't think they should of counted z-rank as pvp.... you should have to at least codex or RA.

TalanRoarer · Oct 13, 2010, 11:01 PM // 23:01

@OP (cba reading comments although i may read what KJ put.)

PvP Characters still get mini pets.

PvP Characters can earn money... (and therefore put weapons in)

PvP Characters can still max:
Luxon
Kurzick
Glad
Fame
Codex
Commander (Back in the day)
Zaishen... ect.

PvP Characters aren't as disadvantaged as you make them out to be. Anyway they're PvE rewards by the looks of it, so...